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- in reply to: New user suggestions #1973
"Andrea" wrote: hello there, and welcome to our forum 🙂
Just have a couple of suggestions to do with a mouse with wheel and side buttons.
When viewing files in Tabbles, it is annoying to have the file display move left-right with the wheel when the default windows behaviour is up-down. Can this be changed or made an option?
yes, this is on our to-do list, although not very high…
👿
"Andrea" wrote:
this is more complicated: the reason why the delay doesn’t exist in any other file manager is that they don’t query a db each time while Tabbles does. We can make it faster, but it’s never gonna be as fast as Windows Explorer, simply because it does way more work than Windows Explorer.Excellent explanation.
in reply to: Link only Tabbles? #1969Sounds cool, Andrea! 🙂 Thanks for the schoolin’
in reply to: Link only Tabbles? #1962My thought was something tiny and self-contained, all but link functionality stripped out. More of an advertisement/toe-in-the-door sort of app. ("Just think what the full version could do for you!")
As I said, just a thought, didn’t know the feasability or useability. Thanks for the feedback on it.
(oh yeah, waiting patiently on the portable version! The browser integration button is keeping me occupied for now just fine. 😉 )
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1920"Andrea" wrote: nefycee: the version you have is for me and you only
(we’re releasing it soon, don’t worry :D)What?! I’m devastated, crushed, inconsolable, sobbing, and all those sorts of awful things because -I- didn’t get the special version too! 😥
Now if you’ll pardon me, I have a tantrum to throw, pearls to clutch at, and the fairness of life to question.
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1890"Maurizio" wrote:
There is one more minor, but important improvement: when you build and show tabbles list (after 1st tabble was selected) it will be much better to sort tabbles by folders 1st and by names 2nd. Right now tabbles from different folders are mixed and it’s not useful.
Would you mind making a detailed example? Because it seems to me it’s already like that. 😯 In the example, please state in what order tabbles are presented now, and in what order you think they should be presented.
I think ahajtin means, and correct me if I’m wrong, a sort that displays folder A, followed by the files in folder A, then folder B, the files in folder B, and so on. Kind of like the tree would display if it could show files. Applied to sorting the combinable tabbles at the beginning of the list it would be a direct application of the tree list layout to the file panel; Parent tabble A, child-tabble(s) in A, parent tabble B, child tabbles, etc… I can see it applied to the combinable tabbles, and/or to the files and folders, but not encompassing both. In the desktop workspace I imagine it’d be easier to do, though.
If that’s indeed what’s meant it would be an interesting sort option for the file panel and I’d be quite interested on the uses for this kind of sort!
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1883"Maurizio" wrote:
Because I try to cath all list before next click :). I can’t concentrate on tabbles, because I see new and new elements in the list :). It’s more psychologycal problem (and may be it’s my personal problem),
I see. Maybe the problem is that you see a lot of movement in the file zone, so you can’t focus your attention on the tabble zone.
Suppose the files appeared all together, suddenly, and not one by one as they do now. There would be no animation to distract you. Would this solve the problem?
Considering that, for me at least, the files can populate relatively slowly (a half sec to a full sec at the slowest) couldn’t this delay the display rather significantly? Make it act or look like a program hang?
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1874"Andrea" wrote: mrdna, thanks a lot for your long explanation – I hope we’re getting closer to it, but still there are things we just don’t grasp.
:geek: :geek: :ugeek:Let me summarize what I understood so far:
- * you mostly use Tabbles as some kind of file/urls related mind-mapping tool
- * in the "desktop window" you arrange the tabbles manually using the free-hand mode (not the auto-arrange tools) in order to do some kind of clustering.
Essentially correct, though in the primary db the "info generation" part (drilling down to the info I want) is especially important as I do plenty of fact checking and contextualizing. With the ‘bills’ db the primary purpose there is document flow.
"Andrea" wrote:
How correct is this? I know it seems like I’m acting like a shrink, but explaining (and therefore understanding) one’s "user experience" is everything but easy. Thanks again for spending all this time on this 🙂No problem, Andrea. A Good Thing in my opinion, especially since we’re dealing with at least 3 different primary languages and the nuances of each can get lost in translation.
"Andrea" wrote:
Our issues while shifting the new GUI are mostly that:- * we still like the zoom/pan GUI, but we realized that most people just don’t get it (and we’re not Apple so we can’t hope we’ll convince them that it’s "beautiful and magical").
- * the whole clustering/mind mapping/desktop idea, is not at all something we did throw away: what we’re trying to do is focusing on something that anyone can understand and have a direct benefit from, and leave for a later moment some other more audacious experiments…
ok… not sure why I wrote that, but I guess trying to explain yourself is never a bad thing
A.
Quite honestly, the way I use it for "idea generation", or mind-mapping, is a side-benefit to what I believe was your central intent of the program; document handling in an extremely configurable environment. Your development path (in general) has been pretty well done – my thing is just trying to keep you guys from tossing out the parts that I’ve come to depend on but that are not central functions to Tabble’s intended use.
Making Tabbles more intuitive to the new user is vastly more important than catering to my whims here, and I think you guys know that… 😆 For my part, I’m aware that I won’t (and haven’t) gotten all I wanted and many things I still harp on aren’t high on the to-do list. Ce la vie, or something like that… 😉
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1872"Andrea" wrote: Hello there everybody,
…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles – In addition to making the classic workspace rather useless in intuitive drilling into my info (following an idea thread) it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. And yes, Maurizio, for me, and it sounds like how mkayi is using it, using the nesting function -does- make the workspace useless to our way of use and the negates the reason for using tabbles in the first place.
This was pretty much my exact argument when you implimented this version of nesting and why I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum. In the workspace, have the tabbles break out by parent tabble, much like it does by color group or alpha.
Ok, let’s see if we get it right:
– what you like of the old main window is that you can have all the tabbles always visible and zoom/pan to have a better look over them.
(Before I reply, I have a feeling there may be some confusion regarding terms both here and with the ‘inheritance’ discussion, so to begin; I have used the term workspace to refer to the main window (the menu choice does say "Tabbles Workspace" but so does the main default in the file panel) so from now on I’ll refer to the Tabbles main window as the "desktop" and the now default window as the ‘file panel’, which contains the ‘tree’ on the left. Hope this helps.)
Correct. AND the ability to move tabbles into little ad hoc groupings during an idea generation process and/or to group disparate topics/people/agencies/places together that I believe will collect or generate more info over a short(ish) time period.
"Andrea" wrote:
– what you don’t like of the nested tabbles is:- * it reduces the usability of the old main window because you see only a portion of the total tabbles, and when you double click into one you’re brought to the file-window and to the tree.
- * when you using the tree, you have to click into each node (tabble-father) in order to see its children, and this is a lot of work each time…
Regarding item 1 – Yes and no. Yes in the sense that I do want the ability to see any or all tabbles I want to see and not have to go through a rather clunky hide/unhide process. One idea to that end was a ‘profile’ ability where hide/unhides are user defined and selected easily. Another was, when the categories were discarded, a way to have collapsible "windows" in the desktop where you could drop in tabbles no matter their color and collapse or expand them as you wish. (Both these ideas, in fact, would form a basis for access levels in a business version, but that’s moot now anyways.)
No, in the sense that I don’t have a problem going into the file window when I’m drilling for the files themselves. I don’t know if it makes alot of sense to you, but the "idea generation" thing I’ve been talking about from day one is about the biggest reason I use Tabbles; in my ‘writing’ db to get ideas about characters and settings, in my ‘bills’ db to lay work out who gets paid now and who later (getting too common these days in my household… oy), and in the primary db to get a visual sense of the players and topics surrounding a political issue.
I guess it’s kind of a zen visual processing kinda thing and is a different ‘level’ than when I get down into the file window where I’m still doing an amount of visual processing via the tags and filenames, by then I’m really more following an idea thread and am "info generating".
Sorry for the long explanation for such a short question. 🙂
As for item 2 – Nope – my problem was not clicking to open it, but my misperception of how inheritance works overall, and quite honestly I’m still confused about that. No issue with the tree at all, but with the nesting as it’s displayed in the desktop screen as noted in item 1…
"Andrea" wrote:
Did we get it right?
If so, what if we put a button in the tree that allows you to open all the nodes at once, or even better, one level at once? This way you would click once (or twice…) and have all the tabbles visible in the tree. I believe this would improve the situation and solve 50% of the problem. 😮 :geek:Um, ok… As I said, not a problem with the tree, but it sounds like a nice idea…
"Andrea" wrote:
I guess (please let me know if I’m wrong): that we could split the left 50% this way:- * 25% = having the tabbles to group differently within the tree (alfabetical, color group etc.) – this may be done soon or later
- * 25% = the fact that by zooming/panning you feel you have way more control – this is more complicated for us…
Bring multiple sort abilities to the tree seems to me to be a natural evolution of it, much like the various sorting that can be done in the desktop.
And no, it’s not a feeling of control or anything of the nature, zooming and panning are requirements to using the freehand layout. I hope I explained my use of the desktop vs file panel well enough above to show you that I use them in different, but complimentary, ways.
"Andrea" wrote:
What we’ve been thinking too is implementing a view mode in the old main window where you can see all the tabbles at once (regardless of their nesting) and get them grouped by color… this is also feasible but rather complex to implement therefore we can’t put in top of our roadmap right now… 😕Well… Ok, but I can achieve the same thing by just keeping my "flat file" configuration and using the sorts already available in the desktop. I don’t use those sorts though, I use the freehand layout so I can move tabbles around.
I have no doubt many of my thoughts and ideas are probably nightmares to code and you guys are doing a great job in improving and refining the program into something with wider appeal than just in the dna household… 🙂
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1870"Maurizio" wrote:
Okay, now I am confused.
So, in detail, how does inheritance and nesting tags work?
❓
Suppose you have file "pluto.png" and two tabbles: "Mammal" and "dog". Drag and drop tabble "dog" into tabble "mammal". This tells Tabbles that a dog is a kind of mammal.
Now put "pluto.png" in tabble "dog". Open tabble "mammal". You see pluto.png. That’s all.
In other words, pluto has been automatically tagged with "mammal", even though you only tagged it as "dog".
Quick thought here (since I can’t test anything till I get home from work in 6hrs or so…)
Ok, by my testing it appears that (via quick-tagging at least) the parent tabble tag is NOT added to the file when it’s tagged with a child-tabble
BUT!
and perhaps it’s due to the way Tabbles displays – when you open the parent tabble all the files tagged with child-tabble tags are displayed. They just don’t have the parent tabble’s tag showing.
For mkayi’s example; the file may only -show- the ‘oil’ tag, however it will show up if you open the art or picture tabbles (which would not show as tags on the file)?
I’ll triple check this when I get home (no hissy fits for me today! 😆 ) but is this about what you’re saying when you say ‘inheritance’?
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1869And that’s where I too am confused…
When working with this last night I had the ‘year’ parent tabble with the years (2001, 2002, etc) as child tabbles (sub-tabbles?). When I tagged a file (via the quick-add) with a year tabble it did not pick up the ‘Year’ parent tabble as it sounds like you’re suggesting it should here. (Did this a few times quick-tagging different files with different years then did the same thing with a couple other tabbles; ‘Reid’ as a child-tabble to ‘Senate’ with the same results, or rather, lack of.)
The thing I realize I -didn’t- try was dropping the file directly onto the ‘2001’ tabble. Would that have caused the ‘Year’ tag to be added too?
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1866Ok, big apologies to Maurizio for my beating him up on inheritance. 😳 Did some playing last night and, indeed, the file DOES NOT inherit the parent tabble.
What I did;
1- created a ‘Year’ tabble
2- Dragged my year tabbles (2001, 2002, etc) into it
3- quick-added a year to a file – the file ONLY got the year tabble and DID NOT inherit the tabble ‘Year’This makes me very happy as I won’t get useless tabbles added to my files. It does, however, raise the question as to how inheritance DOES work and deepens my confusion regarding it.
In mkayi’s example the question was whether by adding the nested tabble ‘Oil’ to a file, the file will also inherit (get added) the parent-tabble’s tags ‘Painting’ and ‘Art’.
It doesn’t seem to work in my above scenario of nested tabbles unless I haven’t figured out which way and how to drag them into the ‘nest’. It DOES work, though, if it’s done with folder-applied rules.
For example;
1- In Windows Explorer you set up directory ‘Art’ and create a rule to tag all files with the ‘Art’ tabble
2- add sub-directory ‘Painting’ to ‘Art’, create a rule to tag all files in it with ‘Painting’
3- add sub-dir ”Oil’ to ‘Painting’, create rule to tag all the folder’s files with ‘Oil’It looks like mkayi’s example;
Art
-painting
–oilA file created in the ‘Painting’ sub-dir gets both ‘Art’ and ‘Painting’
A file created in ‘Oil’ gets ‘oil’, ‘painting’ and ‘art’ all via the 3 defined folder auto-tagging rules.Is this what you are terming as "Inheritance" or is there something I’m missing? The reason I want to be sure of this is not only to get terms straight here, but because ‘inheritance’ (as I think of it) within Tabbles -does- have a place.
Again, apologies Maurizio. Appreciate your patience.
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1864"Maurizio" wrote:
If the inherited tabble -doesn’t- show up under the file then that certainly -does- change nestings usability in the file panel for me
It doesn’t. Ok, so I consider that problem solved.
Good. Will work with this. Apologies for my misunderstanding here. That said, the ability to have a switch to allow the parent-tabble to show is still valid in other situations, for example; the person "Gates" is part of the agency "DoD" so if I drop Gates into DoD then I want both to show up, whereas I -don’t- want the parent tabble "People" to show. Make sense? Minor now though and I may find there’s a work-around anyways.
"Maurizio" wrote:
As to scanning a set of file results – Probably like anyone I key on color, size and shape of the tags to get a quick idea of what I’ve got
Ok, but isn’t it easier to scan the list of suggested tabbles (which is located in the main body, before the files), in order to get "a quick idea of what you’ve got"? After all, that list does not contain repetitions. Scanning the tabbles below the files instead means scanning a list which contains the same tabbles over and over. What I don’t get is why you prefer to scan a list with a lot of repetitions, instead of a list which contains exactly the same elements but without repetitions.
No, although the suggested tabbles do help a bit in some cases, I’m often drilling down or generating ideas based on the files themselves. With the number of files I’m working with and adding daily I can’t tag as completely as I’d like or I’d have alot more than 700 tabbles, so I have to rely some on the filename and alot on my memory (still). (As a side benefit I’m also assessing the file’s current tagging in case I’ve added newer tabbles that may apply but that’s secondary) Also I spend alot of time in folders when not drilling so suggested tabbles there are not useful.
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1861"Maurizio" wrote:
Precisely what I said there; If I place all my people tabbles under a parent-tabble, topic under a topic parent, etc then for a file with person, topic, agency, place tabbles it will inherit 4 extra tabbles. So each file can double the number of tabbles
so far so good…
which makes it harder to quickly scan a set of files
I don’t see how this follows.
I assume you are still using the file-view-mode where tabbles are displayed under the file. But even in this case, inherited tabbles do not appear below the file, so I don’t see why it should be "harder to scan a set of files".
Could you explain?
Hmmm, will have to look at this again – I’d done some testing with another DB when you first put in the nesting and from that and the concept of "inheritance" then a parent tabble would be listed under the file. If the inherited tabble -doesn’t- show up under the file then that certainly -does- change nestings usability in the file panel for me and you can slap me one for having a hissy fit about it.
In the workspace, though… I’m sure you’ll figure something out there.
As to scanning a set of file results – Probably like anyone I key on color, size and shape of the tags to get a quick idea of what I’ve got (shape and size are actually well known keys -everyone- uses for reading. many studies on it over the years), additional ‘garbage’ tags clutter up the tag field and slow that process down. It’s how the brain works…
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1854"Maurizio" wrote:
…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles
So you have a flat list? Interesting.
it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. …. … .I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum.
Could you elaborate? I mean, what exactly is the problem with files inheriting tags which were not directly associated to them? What problem does this cause to you?
Yes, I use a flat list and rely alot on the search box to find things now.
Precisely what I said there; If I place all my people tabbles under a parent-tabble, topic under a topic parent, etc then for a file with person, topic, agency, place tabbles it will inherit 4 extra tabbles. So each file can double the number of tabbles which makes it harder to quickly scan a set of files and get an idea of the tag distribution. Tag clutter to put it simply.
Also as has been mentioned, it makes the workspace difficult to move tabbles around for idea generation.
in reply to: Opinion on 1.4.5 #1852"Andrea" wrote: Hi Alexander
Hi
I think this new interface is a big mistake 🙁
Previous idea with fast zoom in /zoom out above big field with grouped tabbles was MUCH, MUCH better than this ‘foldered tree’. Idea to make innovative software ‘secretary proof’ looks bad for me.
Of course it’s just my opinion.
Best regards,
Alexander KhaytinI’m sorry to hear this… the reason that pushed us towards this redesign is that 95% of the people uninstalling Tabbles did it because they couldn’t find out how it worked. Therefore we moved to a more traditional design (also following the review we got from PcWorld which did harshly criticize our design choices).
We do indeed believe that this version works better and of course we’re expecting some "resistance to the change".
It would be really nice if you could try using this new version for a few days and get back to us again afterwarda… 🙂
Thanks,
Andrea
::sigh:: (insert some mumbled cursing here)
Andrea, while "resistance to change" is a valid position to be aware of, you should quit giving it so much weight, especially when you’re changing some very basic usability functions of the program – which the nesting ability does.
That said, I don’t think I’m the only one hoping that you guys don’t just kind of "forget" the classic workspace as that, for me until it became unusable a few weeks ago, has been my main venue in using the program. The file menu is nice, and I’m sure it will get more useful features (combo faves, mkayis box idea perhaps), but it doesn’t lend itself to the freewheeling idea generation the workspace does.
Granted, the strides in intuitiveness by aligning it closer to the file manager style is great, but don’t blur that difference too much by taking away too many of the innovation Tabbles was originally built around or you just make another file manager…
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