Hi Mkayi! Thanks for your lightning-fast feedback!

Anway: I do have one suggestion (or, if it is already there, I did not find it) – why not have the list ordered by colour groups? For list users, the colour groups are kind of useless aren’t they?

Let me post a pic of how I arranged my tabbles:

Look at the tree: what I did is creating a tabble for each color group e putting inside all the tabbles in that group… it takes 2 mins and it works exactly like the solution you asked, plus it’s way more flexible. Give it a try! 🙂

P.S: do you understand what the circled tabbles in the tree mean? 😉

A.

"mkayi" wrote: hi there,

guess: circled tabbles are tabbles with tabbles in them.

nope… circled tabbles are "combinable" – if you combine them what the tabbles already open you’ll get a non empty group.

"mkayi" wrote:
I admit I did not feel to comfortable with nesting tabbles. Do files added to child tabbles automatically inherit all of the parent tabbles? (which is the expected behaviour on my part)

What do you mean "inherit all of the parent tabble"? No, I don’t think they inherit anything… :-O

"mkayi" wrote: If I create tabbles according to my colour groups and put all the tabbles of those groups in there, does that mean that in the classic workspace the tabbles all disappear and end up in single tabbles with the name of my colour groups?

yes… we did forecast you’d have this problem… 🙁
this is quite a large usability shift. We need to find a solution to make everyone happy, but it won’t be easy…

"mkayi" wrote:
That would make the classic workspace less attractive as I would have to drill down into tabbles to find things I might not be thinking of when opening the app, you know?

Yes.. that’s a side effect of the thing. The good side of it is that if you didn’t know the old main window existed, you wouldn’t care and you would use Tabbles like you use Explorer today…

I’m really looking forward to hear more comments in the next days, I want to see how long it takes for you to get used to the new GUI.

Thanks,

A.

Hi,

Do files added to child tabbles automatically inherit all of the parent tabbles?

Yes, they do .

If I create tabbles according to my colour groups and put all the tabbles of those groups in there, does that mean that in the classic workspace the tabbles all disappear and end up in single tabbles with the name of my colour groups?

Yes.

That would make the classic workspace less attractive as I would have to drill down into tabbles to find things I might not be thinking of when opening the app, you know?

Less attractive, yes. But not entirely useless. It’s like the windows desktop. You can see folders on the Windows desktop, but you don’t see subfolders. You have to open a folder to see its subfolders. But that does not make the desktop useless.

Also, you can put a tabble into another tabble, and at the same time on the workspace. So you don’t have to drill down, but you can see it in two places. (hold ctrl and drag to copy a tabble)

"mkayi" wrote:
I think I will try that. The tabble which contains the copied tabbles would have the same colour group so it shows up among them. Now, I wonder about one thing: considering that the explorer look is the default or new main route and that nesting tabbles is the way to sort stuff there:
will colour groups survive in the long run?

Yes, this is one of the main characteristics of our software, and it’s indeed something a lot of people would like to be able to do on their folders too… they’ll definitely stay there and as time goes we’ll also add more customizations options (different tabble shapes, possibility to put a custom pic inside a tabble, etc).
🙂

A.

Hi

I think this new interface is a big mistake 🙁

Previous idea with fast zoom in /zoom out above big field with grouped tabbles was MUCH, MUCH better than this ‘foldered tree’. Idea to make innovative software ‘secretary proof’ looks bad for me.

Of course it’s just my opinion.

Best regards,
Alexander Khaytin

I was very happy, when I’ve found Tabbles, because it looks like a solution for big interconnected library. Tree idea is not just bad for this purpose, it’s totally useless 🙁

Sorry

Hi Alexander

"ahajtin" wrote: Hi

I think this new interface is a big mistake 🙁

Previous idea with fast zoom in /zoom out above big field with grouped tabbles was MUCH, MUCH better than this ‘foldered tree’. Idea to make innovative software ‘secretary proof’ looks bad for me.

Of course it’s just my opinion.

Best regards,
Alexander Khaytin

I’m sorry to hear this… the reason that pushed us towards this redesign is that 95% of the people uninstalling Tabbles did it because they couldn’t find out how it worked. Therefore we moved to a more traditional design (also following the review we got from PcWorld which did harshly criticize our design choices).

We do indeed believe that this version works better and of course we’re expecting some "resistance to the change".

It would be really nice if you could try using this new version for a few days and get back to us again afterwarda… 🙂

Thanks,

Andrea

"Andrea" wrote:

We do indeed believe that this version works better and of course we’re expecting some "resistance to the change".

It would be really nice if you could try using this new version for a few days and get back to us again afterwarda… 🙂

I’ll try, really. But previous interface was so nice 🙁

Best regards

"mkayi" wrote:
But I am trying to get accustomed to the new interface. The workspace is still there, colour groups are still around. Let’s wait and see.

NO 🙁 I’ve moved all tabbles in this f**** nests and now workspace is useless: there are only nests. So:
1. I can’t find and correct tabbles – I have to review this f**** tree in left panel
2. I have mixed trash (tabbles, folders, files) in the right halfwindow
3. When I try to find something I have to:
a) open tabbles folder in the tree (instead of pan & zoom in one mouse movement)
b) after one tabble selection I get all further possible tabbles and files (and other nest is still closed) so I’ve to open tabble group
c) repeat ? twice
d) get my single book ___at the end of tabbles list__

May be it will be more clear if I’ll name my tabbles groups.

I have really big histrical library. So groups are:
– time period (centuries from XXI bc to XXI, ‘named’ periods: ‘Ancient kingdom’, ‘New kingdom’ etc)
– geographic region
– science (history, biology, archeology etc)
– craftsmanship/technology (military, fortification, weapon, land transport, management, agriculture etc)
– document type (book, map, picture etc) – and IT IS NOT FILE EXTENSION!

I used tabbles to solve 2 problems:
– create my personal ‘ontology’ – sets of tabbles, really
– access library through this ontology

And now I’ve totally lost 1st task :(((((( – this f***** tree is not usable for me AT ALL. 2nd goal is ok – I still can find files.
I think it’s possible to do 2 small improvements:
1st: separate right panel in two: upper with tabbles only and lower with files and folders, and does’not refresh file list every time I combine tabbles 🙁
2nd: make ‘autoexpand’ feature in workspace view, then I can see nested (and useless) tabbles in groups around ‘nests’ as it was in previous version.

Sorry for poor english and high emotions. I feel myself like a kid, after his new toy was broken by elder brother 🙂

Best regards

Dude:

1) thanks for censoring your language – else you would have got banned 🙂

2) tree auto-open feature is on the way… wait a few days 🙂

3)
a) use the search
b) the circled tabbles are "combineable"…
c) try and use Tabbles like you use explorer, double click inside the tabbles in the "body" and advance by double-clicking: Tabbles is generating in real-time a tree of tabbles and is only showing you what is combineable (i.e.: tabbles that if combined will output a non-empty group of files).

b) + c) are VERY powerful, way more than the previous thing… please give it one more try! 🙂

P.S.: we’re extremely busy right now…I’m working on the manual

"Andrea" wrote: Dude:

2) tree auto-open feature is on the way… wait a few days 🙂

3)
a) use the search
b) the circled tabbles are "combineable"…
c) try and use Tabbles like you use explorer, double click inside the tabbles in the "body" and advance by double-clicking: Tabbles is generating in real-time a tree of tabbles and is only showing you what is combineable (i.e.: tabbles that if combined will output a non-empty group of files).

b) + c) are VERY powerful, way more than the previous thing… please give it one more try! 🙂

P.S.: we’re extremely busy right now…I’m working on the manual

Thanks for your answers. I understand you are busy and this reply is my last post for today :).

Auto open feature in tabbles workspace will help.

I used combined tabbles and this idera is good, but all this ‘explorer like’ idea is totally alien for me, because I don’t use explorer at all. I use google desktop search and file manager (really FAR). I don’t think explorer interface is good usability example, really.

Best regards and thanks for patience.

"Maurizio" wrote: Hi,

Do files added to child tabbles automatically inherit all of the parent tabbles?

Yes, they do .

If I create tabbles according to my colour groups and put all the tabbles of those groups in there, does that mean that in the classic workspace the tabbles all disappear and end up in single tabbles with the name of my colour groups?

Yes.

That would make the classic workspace less attractive as I would have to drill down into tabbles to find things I might not be thinking of when opening the app, you know?

Less attractive, yes. But not entirely useless. It’s like the windows desktop. You can see folders on the Windows desktop, but you don’t see subfolders. You have to open a folder to see its subfolders. But that does not make the desktop useless.

Also, you can put a tabble into another tabble, and at the same time on the workspace. So you don’t have to drill down, but you can see it in two places. (hold ctrl and drag to copy a tabble)

…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles – In addition to making the classic workspace rather useless in intuitive drilling into my info (following an idea thread) it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. And yes, Maurizio, for me, and it sounds like how mkayi is using it, using the nesting function -does- make the workspace useless to our way of use and the negates the reason for using tabbles in the first place.

This was pretty much my exact argument when you implimented this version of nesting and why I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum. In the workspace, have the tabbles break out by parent tabble, much like it does by color group or alpha.

…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles

So you have a flat list? Interesting.

it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. …. … .I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum.

Could you elaborate? I mean, what exactly is the problem with files inheriting tags which were not directly associated to them? What problem does this cause to you?

"Andrea" wrote: Hi Alexander

Hi

I think this new interface is a big mistake 🙁

Previous idea with fast zoom in /zoom out above big field with grouped tabbles was MUCH, MUCH better than this ‘foldered tree’. Idea to make innovative software ‘secretary proof’ looks bad for me.

Of course it’s just my opinion.

Best regards,
Alexander Khaytin

I’m sorry to hear this… the reason that pushed us towards this redesign is that 95% of the people uninstalling Tabbles did it because they couldn’t find out how it worked. Therefore we moved to a more traditional design (also following the review we got from PcWorld which did harshly criticize our design choices).

We do indeed believe that this version works better and of course we’re expecting some "resistance to the change".

It would be really nice if you could try using this new version for a few days and get back to us again afterwarda… 🙂

Thanks,

Andrea

::sigh:: (insert some mumbled cursing here)

Andrea, while "resistance to change" is a valid position to be aware of, you should quit giving it so much weight, especially when you’re changing some very basic usability functions of the program – which the nesting ability does.

That said, I don’t think I’m the only one hoping that you guys don’t just kind of "forget" the classic workspace as that, for me until it became unusable a few weeks ago, has been my main venue in using the program. The file menu is nice, and I’m sure it will get more useful features (combo faves, mkayis box idea perhaps), but it doesn’t lend itself to the freewheeling idea generation the workspace does.

Granted, the strides in intuitiveness by aligning it closer to the file manager style is great, but don’t blur that difference too much by taking away too many of the innovation Tabbles was originally built around or you just make another file manager…

"Maurizio" wrote:

…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles

So you have a flat list? Interesting.

it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. …. … .I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum.

Could you elaborate? I mean, what exactly is the problem with files inheriting tags which were not directly associated to them? What problem does this cause to you?

Yes, I use a flat list and rely alot on the search box to find things now.

Precisely what I said there; If I place all my people tabbles under a parent-tabble, topic under a topic parent, etc then for a file with person, topic, agency, place tabbles it will inherit 4 extra tabbles. So each file can double the number of tabbles which makes it harder to quickly scan a set of files and get an idea of the tag distribution. Tag clutter to put it simply.

Also as has been mentioned, it makes the workspace difficult to move tabbles around for idea generation.

Precisely what I said there; If I place all my people tabbles under a parent-tabble, topic under a topic parent, etc then for a file with person, topic, agency, place tabbles it will inherit 4 extra tabbles. So each file can double the number of tabbles

so far so good…

which makes it harder to quickly scan a set of files

I don’t see how this follows.

I assume you are still using the file-view-mode where tabbles are displayed under the file. But even in this case, inherited tabbles do not appear below the file, so I don’t see why it should be "harder to scan a set of files".

Could you explain?

"Maurizio" wrote:

Precisely what I said there; If I place all my people tabbles under a parent-tabble, topic under a topic parent, etc then for a file with person, topic, agency, place tabbles it will inherit 4 extra tabbles. So each file can double the number of tabbles

so far so good…

which makes it harder to quickly scan a set of files

I don’t see how this follows.

I assume you are still using the file-view-mode where tabbles are displayed under the file. But even in this case, inherited tabbles do not appear below the file, so I don’t see why it should be "harder to scan a set of files".

Could you explain?

Hmmm, will have to look at this again – I’d done some testing with another DB when you first put in the nesting and from that and the concept of "inheritance" then a parent tabble would be listed under the file. If the inherited tabble -doesn’t- show up under the file then that certainly -does- change nestings usability in the file panel for me and you can slap me one for having a hissy fit about it.

In the workspace, though… I’m sure you’ll figure something out there.

As to scanning a set of file results – Probably like anyone I key on color, size and shape of the tags to get a quick idea of what I’ve got (shape and size are actually well known keys -everyone- uses for reading. many studies on it over the years), additional ‘garbage’ tags clutter up the tag field and slow that process down. It’s how the brain works…

@mrdna

If the inherited tabble -doesn’t- show up under the file

It doesn’t. Ok, so I consider that problem solved.

As to scanning a set of file results – Probably like anyone I key on color, size and shape of the tags to get a quick idea of what I’ve got

Ok, but isn’t it easier to scan the list of combinable tabbles (which is located in the main body, before the files), in order to get "a quick idea of what you’ve got"? After all, that list does not contain repetitions. Scanning the tabbles below the files instead means scanning a list which contains the same tabbles over and over. What I don’t get is why you prefer to scan a list with a lot of repetitions, instead of a list which contains exactly the same elements but without repetitions.

"mkayi" wrote: I would like to add that I do expect nested tags to inherit.

art
|_music
|_painting
….|_oil

when I tag something with "oil" I expect it to be automatically tagged with "painting" and "art" also, but not with music. Evernote has nesting tags without inheriting parent tags and that is just a load of BS, as it does not do anything to sort out your stuff.

Tabbles works exactly as you describe.

The obvious advantage is that you are able to tag a file with only the most specific tags , and have the less specific tags automatically applied.

"Maurizio" wrote:

If the inherited tabble -doesn’t- show up under the file then that certainly -does- change nestings usability in the file panel for me

It doesn’t. Ok, so I consider that problem solved.

Good. Will work with this. Apologies for my misunderstanding here. That said, the ability to have a switch to allow the parent-tabble to show is still valid in other situations, for example; the person "Gates" is part of the agency "DoD" so if I drop Gates into DoD then I want both to show up, whereas I -don’t- want the parent tabble "People" to show. Make sense? Minor now though and I may find there’s a work-around anyways.

"Maurizio" wrote:

As to scanning a set of file results – Probably like anyone I key on color, size and shape of the tags to get a quick idea of what I’ve got

Ok, but isn’t it easier to scan the list of suggested tabbles (which is located in the main body, before the files), in order to get "a quick idea of what you’ve got"? After all, that list does not contain repetitions. Scanning the tabbles below the files instead means scanning a list which contains the same tabbles over and over. What I don’t get is why you prefer to scan a list with a lot of repetitions, instead of a list which contains exactly the same elements but without repetitions.

No, although the suggested tabbles do help a bit in some cases, I’m often drilling down or generating ideas based on the files themselves. With the number of files I’m working with and adding daily I can’t tag as completely as I’d like or I’d have alot more than 700 tabbles, so I have to rely some on the filename and alot on my memory (still). (As a side benefit I’m also assessing the file’s current tagging in case I’ve added newer tabbles that may apply but that’s secondary) Also I spend alot of time in folders when not drilling so suggested tabbles there are not useful.

Ok, big apologies to Maurizio for my beating him up on inheritance. 😳 Did some playing last night and, indeed, the file DOES NOT inherit the parent tabble.

What I did;
1- created a ‘Year’ tabble
2- Dragged my year tabbles (2001, 2002, etc) into it
3- quick-added a year to a file – the file ONLY got the year tabble and DID NOT inherit the tabble ‘Year’

This makes me very happy as I won’t get useless tabbles added to my files. It does, however, raise the question as to how inheritance DOES work and deepens my confusion regarding it.

In mkayi’s example the question was whether by adding the nested tabble ‘Oil’ to a file, the file will also inherit (get added) the parent-tabble’s tags ‘Painting’ and ‘Art’.

It doesn’t seem to work in my above scenario of nested tabbles unless I haven’t figured out which way and how to drag them into the ‘nest’. It DOES work, though, if it’s done with folder-applied rules.

For example;
1- In Windows Explorer you set up directory ‘Art’ and create a rule to tag all files with the ‘Art’ tabble
2- add sub-directory ‘Painting’ to ‘Art’, create a rule to tag all files in it with ‘Painting’
3- add sub-dir ”Oil’ to ‘Painting’, create rule to tag all the folder’s files with ‘Oil’

It looks like mkayi’s example;
Art
-painting
–oil

A file created in the ‘Painting’ sub-dir gets both ‘Art’ and ‘Painting’
A file created in ‘Oil’ gets ‘oil’, ‘painting’ and ‘art’ all via the 3 defined folder auto-tagging rules.

Is this what you are terming as "Inheritance" or is there something I’m missing? The reason I want to be sure of this is not only to get terms straight here, but because ‘inheritance’ (as I think of it) within Tabbles -does- have a place.

Again, apologies Maurizio. Appreciate your patience.

"mkayi" wrote: Okay, now I am confused.

So, in detail, how does inheritance and nesting tags work?

❓

Suppose you have file "pluto.png" and two tabbles: "Mammal" and "dog". Drag and drop tabble "dog" into tabble "mammal". This tells Tabbles that a dog is a kind of mammal.

Now put "pluto.png" in tabble "dog". Open tabble "mammal". You see pluto.png. That’s all.

In other words, pluto has been automatically tagged with "mammal", even though you only tagged it as "dog".

And that’s where I too am confused…

When working with this last night I had the ‘year’ parent tabble with the years (2001, 2002, etc) as child tabbles (sub-tabbles?). When I tagged a file (via the quick-add) with a year tabble it did not pick up the ‘Year’ parent tabble as it sounds like you’re suggesting it should here. (Did this a few times quick-tagging different files with different years then did the same thing with a couple other tabbles; ‘Reid’ as a child-tabble to ‘Senate’ with the same results, or rather, lack of.)

The thing I realize I -didn’t- try was dropping the file directly onto the ‘2001’ tabble. Would that have caused the ‘Year’ tag to be added too?

"Maurizio" wrote:

Okay, now I am confused.

So, in detail, how does inheritance and nesting tags work?

❓

Suppose you have file "pluto.png" and two tabbles: "Mammal" and "dog". Drag and drop tabble "dog" into tabble "mammal". This tells Tabbles that a dog is a kind of mammal.

Now put "pluto.png" in tabble "dog". Open tabble "mammal". You see pluto.png. That’s all.

In other words, pluto has been automatically tagged with "mammal", even though you only tagged it as "dog".

Quick thought here (since I can’t test anything till I get home from work in 6hrs or so…)

Ok, by my testing it appears that (via quick-tagging at least) the parent tabble tag is NOT added to the file when it’s tagged with a child-tabble

BUT!

and perhaps it’s due to the way Tabbles displays – when you open the parent tabble all the files tagged with child-tabble tags are displayed. They just don’t have the parent tabble’s tag showing.

For mkayi’s example; the file may only -show- the ‘oil’ tag, however it will show up if you open the art or picture tabbles (which would not show as tags on the file)?

I’ll triple check this when I get home (no hissy fits for me today! 😆 ) but is this about what you’re saying when you say ‘inheritance’?

Hello there everybody,

"mrdna" wrote:

…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles – In addition to making the classic workspace rather useless in intuitive drilling into my info (following an idea thread) it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. And yes, Maurizio, for me, and it sounds like how mkayi is using it, using the nesting function -does- make the workspace useless to our way of use and the negates the reason for using tabbles in the first place.

This was pretty much my exact argument when you implimented this version of nesting and why I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum. In the workspace, have the tabbles break out by parent tabble, much like it does by color group or alpha.

Ok, let’s see if we get it right:

– what you like of the old main window is that you can have all the tabbles always visible and zoom/pan to have a better look over them.

– what you don’t like of the nested tabbles is:

1. * it reduces the usability of the old main window because you see only a portion of the total tabbles, and when you double click into one you’re brought to the file-window and to the tree.

* when you using the tree, you have to click into each node (tabble-father) in order to see its children, and this is a lot of work each time…

Did we get it right?
If so, what if we put a button in the tree that allows you to open all the nodes at once, or even better, one level at once? This way you would click once (or twice…) and have all the tabbles visible in the tree. I believe this would improve the situation and solve 50% of the problem. 😮 :geek:

I guess (please let me know if I’m wrong): that we could split the left 50% this way:

• * 25% = having the tabbles to group differently within the tree (alfabetical, color group etc.) – this may be done soon or later

• * 25% = the fact that by zooming/panning you feel you have way more control – this is more complicated for us…

What we’ve been thinking too is implementing a view mode in the old main window where you can see all the tabbles at once (regardless of their nesting) and get them grouped by color… this is also feasible but rather complex to implement therefore we can’t put in top of our roadmap right now… 😕

"Andrea" wrote: Hello there everybody,

…and this is precisely why I don’t use the nested tabbles – In addition to making the classic workspace rather useless in intuitive drilling into my info (following an idea thread) it also requires adding upwards of 5 (or more!) very useless tags to all my files. And yes, Maurizio, for me, and it sounds like how mkayi is using it, using the nesting function -does- make the workspace useless to our way of use and the negates the reason for using tabbles in the first place.

This was pretty much my exact argument when you implimented this version of nesting and why I’ve asked for a switch or some other way to allow the user to chose whether the parent-tabble is inherited, at minimum. In the workspace, have the tabbles break out by parent tabble, much like it does by color group or alpha.

Ok, let’s see if we get it right:

– what you like of the old main window is that you can have all the tabbles always visible and zoom/pan to have a better look over them.

(Before I reply, I have a feeling there may be some confusion regarding terms both here and with the ‘inheritance’ discussion, so to begin; I have used the term workspace to refer to the main window (the menu choice does say "Tabbles Workspace" but so does the main default in the file panel) so from now on I’ll refer to the Tabbles main window as the "desktop" and the now default window as the ‘file panel’, which contains the ‘tree’ on the left. Hope this helps.)

Correct. AND the ability to move tabbles into little ad hoc groupings during an idea generation process and/or to group disparate topics/people/agencies/places together that I believe will collect or generate more info over a short(ish) time period.

"Andrea" wrote:
– what you don’t like of the nested tabbles is:

1. * it reduces the usability of the old main window because you see only a portion of the total tabbles, and when you double click into one you’re brought to the file-window and to the tree.

* when you using the tree, you have to click into each node (tabble-father) in order to see its children, and this is a lot of work each time…

Regarding item 1 – Yes and no. Yes in the sense that I do want the ability to see any or all tabbles I want to see and not have to go through a rather clunky hide/unhide process. One idea to that end was a ‘profile’ ability where hide/unhides are user defined and selected easily. Another was, when the categories were discarded, a way to have collapsible "windows" in the desktop where you could drop in tabbles no matter their color and collapse or expand them as you wish. (Both these ideas, in fact, would form a basis for access levels in a business version, but that’s moot now anyways.)

No, in the sense that I don’t have a problem going into the file window when I’m drilling for the files themselves. I don’t know if it makes alot of sense to you, but the "idea generation" thing I’ve been talking about from day one is about the biggest reason I use Tabbles; in my ‘writing’ db to get ideas about characters and settings, in my ‘bills’ db to lay work out who gets paid now and who later (getting too common these days in my household… oy), and in the primary db to get a visual sense of the players and topics surrounding a political issue.

I guess it’s kind of a zen visual processing kinda thing and is a different ‘level’ than when I get down into the file window where I’m still doing an amount of visual processing via the tags and filenames, by then I’m really more following an idea thread and am "info generating".

Sorry for the long explanation for such a short question. 🙂

As for item 2 – Nope – my problem was not clicking to open it, but my misperception of how inheritance works overall, and quite honestly I’m still confused about that. No issue with the tree at all, but with the nesting as it’s displayed in the desktop screen as noted in item 1…

"Andrea" wrote:
Did we get it right?
If so, what if we put a button in the tree that allows you to open all the nodes at once, or even better, one level at once? This way you would click once (or twice…) and have all the tabbles visible in the tree. I believe this would improve the situation and solve 50% of the problem. 😮 :geek:

Um, ok… As I said, not a problem with the tree, but it sounds like a nice idea…

"Andrea" wrote:
I guess (please let me know if I’m wrong): that we could split the left 50% this way:

• * 25% = having the tabbles to group differently within the tree (alfabetical, color group etc.) – this may be done soon or later

• * 25% = the fact that by zooming/panning you feel you have way more control – this is more complicated for us…

Bring multiple sort abilities to the tree seems to me to be a natural evolution of it, much like the various sorting that can be done in the desktop.

And no, it’s not a feeling of control or anything of the nature, zooming and panning are requirements to using the freehand layout. I hope I explained my use of the desktop vs file panel well enough above to show you that I use them in different, but complimentary, ways.

"Andrea" wrote:
What we’ve been thinking too is implementing a view mode in the old main window where you can see all the tabbles at once (regardless of their nesting) and get them grouped by color… this is also feasible but rather complex to implement therefore we can’t put in top of our roadmap right now… 😕

Well… Ok, but I can achieve the same thing by just keeping my "flat file" configuration and using the sorts already available in the desktop. I don’t use those sorts though, I use the freehand layout so I can move tabbles around.

I have no doubt many of my thoughts and ideas are probably nightmares to code and you guys are doing a great job in improving and refining the program into something with wider appeal than just in the dna household… 🙂

mrdna, thanks a lot for your long explanation – I hope we’re getting closer to it, but still there are things we just don’t grasp.
:geek: :geek: :ugeek:

Let me summarize what I understood so far:

• * you mostly use Tabbles as some kind of file/urls related mind-mapping tool

* in the "desktop window" you arrange the tabbles manually using the free-hand mode (not the auto-arrange tools) in order to do some kind of clustering.

How correct is this? I know it seems like I’m acting like a shrink, but explaining (and therefore understanding) one’s "user experience" is everything but easy. Thanks again for spending all this time on this 🙂

Our issues while shifting the new GUI are mostly that:

• * we still like the zoom/pan GUI, but we realized that most people just don’t get it (and we’re not Apple so we can’t hope we’ll convince them that it’s "beautiful and magical").

• * the whole clustering/mind mapping/desktop idea, is not at all something we did throw away: what we’re trying to do is focusing on something that anyone can understand and have a direct benefit from, and leave for a later moment some other more audacious experiments…

ok… not sure why I wrote that, but I guess trying to explain yourself is never a bad thing

A.

"Andrea" wrote: mrdna, thanks a lot for your long explanation – I hope we’re getting closer to it, but still there are things we just don’t grasp.
:geek: :geek: :ugeek:

Let me summarize what I understood so far:

• * you mostly use Tabbles as some kind of file/urls related mind-mapping tool

• * in the "desktop window" you arrange the tabbles manually using the free-hand mode (not the auto-arrange tools) in order to do some kind of clustering.

Essentially correct, though in the primary db the "info generation" part (drilling down to the info I want) is especially important as I do plenty of fact checking and contextualizing. With the ‘bills’ db the primary purpose there is document flow.

"Andrea" wrote:
How correct is this? I know it seems like I’m acting like a shrink, but explaining (and therefore understanding) one’s "user experience" is everything but easy. Thanks again for spending all this time on this 🙂

No problem, Andrea. A Good Thing in my opinion, especially since we’re dealing with at least 3 different primary languages and the nuances of each can get lost in translation.

"Andrea" wrote:
Our issues while shifting the new GUI are mostly that:

• * we still like the zoom/pan GUI, but we realized that most people just don’t get it (and we’re not Apple so we can’t hope we’ll convince them that it’s "beautiful and magical").

• * the whole clustering/mind mapping/desktop idea, is not at all something we did throw away: what we’re trying to do is focusing on something that anyone can understand and have a direct benefit from, and leave for a later moment some other more audacious experiments…

ok… not sure why I wrote that, but I guess trying to explain yourself is never a bad thing

A.

Quite honestly, the way I use it for "idea generation", or mind-mapping, is a side-benefit to what I believe was your central intent of the program; document handling in an extremely configurable environment. Your development path (in general) has been pretty well done – my thing is just trying to keep you guys from tossing out the parts that I’ve come to depend on but that are not central functions to Tabble’s intended use.

Making Tabbles more intuitive to the new user is vastly more important than catering to my whims here, and I think you guys know that… 😆 For my part, I’m aware that I won’t (and haven’t) gotten all I wanted and many things I still harp on aren’t high on the to-do list. Ce la vie, or something like that… 😉

"Andrea" wrote: If so, what if we put a button in the tree that allows you to open all the nodes at once, or even better, one level at once? This way you would click once (or twice…) and have all the tabbles visible in the tree. I believe this would improve the situation and solve 50% of the problem. 😮 :geek:

…

What we’ve been thinking too is implementing a view mode in the old main window where you can see all the tabbles at once (regardless of their nesting) and get them grouped by color… this is also feasible but rather complex to implement therefore we can’t put in top of our roadmap right now… 😕

If you can do same ‘group open’ feature in the ‘plain’ view (old workspace) it will be great. May be grouped around ‘nest’.

And for me there is no need in special color function, it’s useful if color is an attribute of tabbles group (nest).

One more important thing: I store file library on the NAS and access them by WiFi, so when you try to filter all files after each tabble click is very slow for me. Can you some desync tabble clicking (crating filter, really) and files list processing? It will be very good for me to have a possibility to combine some tabbles ASAP (without delay caused by file access) and then wait a bit to get filtered list?

And please :), add tabbles DB sharing – I use notebook and desktop to access to NAS and it will be awesome to use one tabble base 🙂

It will be very good for me to have a possibility to combine some tabbles ASAP (without delay caused by file access) and then wait a bit to get filtered list?

I don’t understand… it should already be like that. When you open a tabble, first the combinable tabbles are displayed in the main body, and only then the disk is accessed and the file list is built and displayed. So you can easily double-click and combine a tabble before the files have been displayed.

There is no access to the disk until after the combinable tabbles are displayed.

(The above is only true when you opened an ordinary tabble. It does not hold when you have opened a folder-shortcut, aka folder-tabble).

"Maurizio" wrote:

It will be very good for me to have a possibility to combine some tabbles ASAP (without delay caused by file access) and then wait a bit to get filtered list?

I don’t understand… it should already be like that. When you open a tabble, first the combinable tabbles are displayed in the main body, and only then the disk is accessed and the file list is built and displayed. So you can easily double-click and combine a tabble before the files have been displayed.

There is no access to the disk until after the combinable tabbles are displayed.

(The above is only true when you opened an ordinary tabble. It does not hold when you have opened a folder-shortcut, aka folder-tabble).

When I click any tabble i can see list of possible combinations (list of tabbles) and list of files, matched with already selected tabbles in one combined list. Right?

And I can see this list in progress, it does not appear instantly – it takes short time. I thought it was some data transfer (may be for icon generating). I can be wrong, of course.

Of course I can click another tabble before list is complete, but it’s a bit uncomfortable :), I try to catch all list reflexly, even if it’s not necessary :). Of course it’s just my personal (and minor) problem 🙂

When I click any tabble i can see list of possible combinations (list of tabbles) and list of files, matched with already selected tabbles in one combined list. Right?

Right. First, a list of tabbles. Then, a list of files.

And I can see this list in progress, it does not appear instantly – it takes short time.

Wait. What list can you see in progress? The list of files or the list of tabbles?

On my machine, the list of tabbles appears (almost) instantly, whereas the list of files appears with a delay. Do you confirm?

Or does the list of tabbles appear with a delay on your machine? This would be a bug.

Of course I can click another tabble before list is complete, but it’s a bit uncomfortable 🙂

Do you mean you are uncomfortable clicking a tabble from the list of tabbles before the list of files is complete? But that’s exactly what you are supposed to do… why does this feel uncomfortable to you?

"Maurizio" wrote:
Right. First, a list of tabbles. Then, a list of files.

And I can see this list in progress, it does not appear instantly – it takes short time.

Wait. What list can you see in progress? The list of files or the list of tabbles?

On my machine, the list of tabbles appears (almost) instantly, whereas the list of files appears with a delay. Do you confirm?

Yes, I confirm 🙂

"Maurizio" wrote:
Or does the list of tabbles appear with a delay on your machine? This would be a bug.

Of course I can click another tabble before list is complete, but it’s a bit uncomfortable 🙂

Do you mean you are uncomfortable clicking a tabble from the list of tabbles before the list of files is complete? But that’s exactly what you are supposed to do… why does this feel uncomfortable to you?

Because I try to catch all list before next click :). I can’t concentrate on tabbles, because I see new and new elements in the list :). It’s more psychologycal problem (and may be it’s my personal problem), but for me it’s uncomfortable to click at the element of unfinished list 🙂

Because I try to cath all list before next click :). I can’t concentrate on tabbles, because I see new and new elements in the list :). It’s more psychologycal problem (and may be it’s my personal problem),

I see. Maybe the problem is that you see a lot of movement in the file zone, so you can’t focus your attention on the tabble zone.

Suppose the files appeared all together, suddenly, and not one by one as they do now. There would be no animation to distract you. Would this solve the problem?

"Maurizio" wrote:
Suppose the files appeared all together, suddenly, and not one by one as they do now. There would be no animation to distract you. Would this solve the problem?

I think it’s a good idea. It can solve my concentration problem 🙂

"Maurizio" wrote:

Because I try to cath all list before next click :). I can’t concentrate on tabbles, because I see new and new elements in the list :). It’s more psychologycal problem (and may be it’s my personal problem),

I see. Maybe the problem is that you see a lot of movement in the file zone, so you can’t focus your attention on the tabble zone.

Suppose the files appeared all together, suddenly, and not one by one as they do now. There would be no animation to distract you. Would this solve the problem?

Considering that, for me at least, the files can populate relatively slowly (a half sec to a full sec at the slowest) couldn’t this delay the display rather significantly? Make it act or look like a program hang?

"mrdna" wrote: Considering that, for me at least, the files can populate relatively slowly (a half sec to a full sec at the slowest) couldn’t this delay the display rather significantly? Make it act or look like a program hang?

I agree! 😮

"mrdna" wrote:

Considering that, for me at least, the files can populate relatively slowly (a half sec to a full sec at the slowest) couldn’t this delay the display rather significantly? Make it act or look like a program hang?

I am thinking to show files in blocks of sixty or so. So the delay will be very small. And I don’t think it would make a difference, because I suspect you can’t focus on a zone anyway while files are being drawn somewhere else. This must be tested of course.

I’ve installed 1.4.6 and my problem with file list is solved. It’s ok now, because there is no ‘animation’.

I still hope in the future there will be workspace with all open tabbles, because I need this view very much.

There is one more minor, but important improvement: when you build and show tabbles list (after 1st tabble was selected) it will be much better to sort tabbles by folders 1st and by names 2nd. Right now tabbles from different folders are mixed and it’s not useful.

Thank you for quick improvement and your patience 🙂

Best regards

I still hope in the future there will be workspace with all open tabbles

Excuse me, what do you mean by open tabbles?

There is one more minor, but important improvement: when you build and show tabbles list (after 1st tabble was selected) it will be much better to sort tabbles by folders 1st and by names 2nd. Right now tabbles from different folders are mixed and it’s not useful.

Would you mind making a detailed example? Because it seems to me it’s already like that. 😯 In the example, please state in what order tabbles are presented now, and in what order you think they should be presented.

"Maurizio" wrote:

There is one more minor, but important improvement: when you build and show tabbles list (after 1st tabble was selected) it will be much better to sort tabbles by folders 1st and by names 2nd. Right now tabbles from different folders are mixed and it’s not useful.

Would you mind making a detailed example? Because it seems to me it’s already like that. 😯 In the example, please state in what order tabbles are presented now, and in what order you think they should be presented.

I think ahajtin means, and correct me if I’m wrong, a sort that displays folder A, followed by the files in folder A, then folder B, the files in folder B, and so on. Kind of like the tree would display if it could show files. Applied to sorting the combinable tabbles at the beginning of the list it would be a direct application of the tree list layout to the file panel; Parent tabble A, child-tabble(s) in A, parent tabble B, child tabbles, etc… I can see it applied to the combinable tabbles, and/or to the files and folders, but not encompassing both. In the desktop workspace I imagine it’d be easier to do, though.

If that’s indeed what’s meant it would be an interesting sort option for the file panel and I’d be quite interested on the uses for this kind of sort!

"Maurizio" wrote:

I still hope in the future there will be workspace with all open tabbles

Excuse me, what do you mean by open tabbles?

There is one more minor, but important improvement: when you build and show tabbles list (after 1st tabble was selected) it will be much better to sort tabbles by folders 1st and by names 2nd. Right now tabbles from different folders are mixed and it’s not useful.

Would you mind making a detailed example? Because it seems to me it’s already like that. 😯 In the example, please state in what order tabbles are presented now, and in what order you think they should be presented.

Sorry for my poor english :), I’m trying to improve :).

1st: "Open tabbles"
After Select Tools/Tabbles Workspace selection I can see workspace with tabbles folder. When I double click any item I leave workspace view and jump to ‘exlorer’ view.

But if I could see all tabbles folder opened in workspace (tabbles placed around tabbles folder) i could be very useful for me. All structure (tabbles in tabbles groups) can remain intact, just show all elements in workspace.

2nd: list elements sorting order
I use ‘explorer’ view
a) double click tabbles folder A in the left panel – I can see tabbles from folder A, list of other tabbles folders, file folders and files
b) double click one tabble from tabbles folder A – I can see some remaining tabbles from folder A (possible combination), remaining tabbles folders and file list
c) double click tabbles folder B (right panel) – I can see tabbles from tabbles group A, tabbles from tabbles group B and other tabbles groups mixed together and sorted by name and after all this mix there is file list.

So, I think it will be much better to group tabbles in tabbles list (right panel) by tabbles groups and sort by name only inside groups.

hello there! Always happy to hear some constructive criticism 🙂

I do think the window which lists the files need a major overhaul, really (with a separation between files and available tabbles as the very first thing).

What do you mean? What is your problem with it? Please explain us 😮

Besides, if you want to go Microsoft standardized why do you have the user scroll horizontally?
mkayi

Well, the horizontal scroll is one of the standard ways that Windows Explorer offers… we’re planning to do more of course

Needed: A topdown list sortable by file name, created and modified date, size and so on (like, you know, in the product you now aim to mimick… ).

we know this too… it’s on our to do list (but it’s a lot of work though)

Right now, I can sort by date (cumbersome through a menu, not a coloumn header like in the MSExplorer), but I can’t see the dates, can I?

Yes you can! View > File view

All in all: once you make the decision to copy the Explorer you have to be at least as good as the Explorer so the user really feels that the ability to add tabbles to files comes as the icing on the cake. Right now, it’s a bit erm… half-assed. Is there a non-rude word for this? In german it would be half-hearted which is nicer, heh…

Yes, this is where we’re heading… the point is that even if it doesn’t seem so, Windows Explorer is a monster application, and recoding the whole of it would take time. Now, the question is not if, but only when, and more precisely, do you think it’s more important to have the column view or:

1) making Tabbles portable (so that it runs from a USB) – many people asked for this
2) better web-browser integration (with a bookmarklet)
3) manually excluding some disk – a looooot people asked for this
4) shared-tabbles (I don’t think I need to add anything here…) 🙂

So, the answer is: we agree on the path but the path is looooong. Patience, my young padawan, patience is the key for The Force©

"Andrea" wrote:

I do think the window which lists the files need a major overhaul, really (with a separation between files and available tabbles as the very first thing).

What do you mean? What is your problem with it? Please explain us 😮

I think I had the same problem, but the "+" sign solved this I think.

As a result of the new GUI my biggest wish would be one a freehand listing for the main window. 😕

nefycee: the version you have is for me and you only
(we’re releasing it soon, don’t worry :D)

"Andrea" wrote: nefycee: the version you have is for me and you only
(we’re releasing it soon, don’t worry :D)

What?! I’m devastated, crushed, inconsolable, sobbing, and all those sorts of awful things because -I- didn’t get the special version too! 😥

Now if you’ll pardon me, I have a tantrum to throw, pearls to clutch at, and the fairness of life to question.

upps, sorry I forgot 😳

Well, the 1st problem will be solved I think mkayi 😛

Hello again,

lool, I understand your frustration, but please understand our points too:

the right hand pane lists the tabbles the directories and then the files and there’s no separation between them. I find that confusing as hell. It makes it also look like I nested Tabbles where I didn’t.

now it looks pretty much like explorer, so far this is giving the following results:
1) previously 90%+ of the people uninstalling Tabbles were marking "I can’t figure out how it works" as the reason why they uninstalled… since the GUI change the trend is DRASTICALLY changed.
2) a guy wrote us: "Hi, I had looked at Tabbles in its earlier version and it just seemed like a gimmick. The new interface is really MUCH improved – so much that I bought it!".

Here the point is about the concept of improved: it seem that for most of the people a good interface is one they understand (or believe they understand) at first glance.

It is strange, but each of the above just makes me shrug. Those things are themselves icing on the cake of an otherwise fully grown-up application (which – and that is the conclusion I am coming to right now – Tabbles is not).

I understand this is so for you, but given the questions we asked around (on the forum and outside) it doesn’t seem to be the case. We have 2 cases of people (office workers) who had to uninstall Tabbles as it "listens" to network drives that don’t really matter for them – causing the pc to slow down and making the network unaccessible…this should indeed be true for everyone working in an office environment: this is a "blocking" thing for them, meaning that if it’s not there, they can’t use Tabbles at all.

Equally, virtually everyone has been asking for the shared-tabbles since day one and we agree this is the most interesting upcoming feature of the software.

What I am talking about is the very basics of your user experience. I can’t handle your new file list. It is a mess. It contains mixed information.
"Hey! Here’s the content of this tabble. Erm, right here at the start of the list there’s also a list of tabbles although they are not really in that tabble, you know? Nevermind. By the way, you have to read that list both from top to bottom and from left to right." And so on. The pagewise separation is also very annoying.
This thing needs cleaning up.

We know this! And we’ll do some clean-up… it’s just not the top priority. 🙂

Now, enter the enthusiastic startup with an exciting idea. Some adapt others don’t. The new UI gets dropped and the startup decides to choose the road taken (unlike Robert Frost, hehe). Decision is made, obviously, so I won’t whine about that spilt milk.
But some things to keep in mind:

– Now, you are competing with a beast. (whereas before you were utterly unique – I hadn’t seen anything like it)
– If you make it look like explorer, make it work like explorer. People will expect it and will consider lacking functionality a mock-up. ("Huh? XY should be here. They don’t have that.")
– when you achieve that goal, you still have a twist in the user experience where the user needs to understand the abstraction concept behind Tabbles.
– This means you have twice the workload. Maintain an explorer-clone and work out a UI concept which affords using Tabbles! The same way a riffled surface on a scroll bar affords dragging. Noone even needs to explain that to me. I happen to just understand how the element wants to be used. That is a tough task. And now, it comes on top of creating a beast of an app.

I hear you, but:
— no one wants to hear about the fresh startup: people want solutions to their problems and they have to be easy to use
— we’ve been focusing in making the GUI as similar as possible to Explorer: you double-click into Tabbles and you get into them being presented a "virtual tree", the concept is very new but it’s "retro-fitted" to an old GUI concept. Believe when I say that we spent countless hours discussing about this… What we believe now is that had you seen Tabbles 1.4.5 today for the first time, it would have looked way more user-friendly than if you had seen Tabbles 1.3.0 or something (if this is correct, this means we’re on the right track)
— Tabbles is a tagging tool and offers other functionalities than Windows Explorer. One day (hopefully) it will do the same things as Explorer. But still our unique functionalities are the ones we’re willing to push.

I’m sorry if it sounds like I’m putting a wall between your needs our plans, but scheduling work is never easy and everyone would like us to develop his/her dream app. We’re trying to wrap-up everyone’s desires and try and go where the best balance of money/development time is – choices aren’t easy and we definitely need feedback. The point here is that this conversation happened already (as long as many others) on the forum and while I know everything going on here, you obviously can’t…

Btw: I’m uploading the 1.4.9 in a bit: there are some "+" next to the combinable tabbles, both in the body and in the tree… let’s see if this helps a bit.

Peace!

Andrea